INTERVIEW WITH JESUS
"What I represent in
history or religion
is not what I am. I am not an idea,
yet it is the
a product of the imaginative mind
that is sought: This can never be
Religions provide some instruction,
some ethics or morality,
morality is not Love."
It is Christmas day, about
M.T. How do you feel about having
a holiday in your name?
J.C. Well, of course it is not my
name at all. My name was never Jesus Christ. And Christmas? That's a joke is it
not? Another play on words? Christmas supposedly relates to the Christ-Mass . .
. the Mass was perhaps the original intent . . . the Ceremony of the Savior. Few
understand this do they? Is anyone saved by this commercial Christmas
M.T. Are you not the Christian
J.C. Before Abraham was, I
M.T. Well, I mean the Savior as
mentioned in the Bible, in the New Testament.
J.C. Ah, you mean the story about
Jesus, the Jesus myth.
J.C. Jesus saw himself as part of
the Hebrew tradition. One central issue of this historical tradition was
sacrifice, human sacrifice. This comes from old tribal customs of sacrificing an
individual for the good of the tribe, to a god. This later changed to the
sacrifice of animals. In one sense, Jesus became this sacrifice. All life is
sacrifice, is it not? I and the Lamb, the first-born, the Higher Self. All this
is inherent within the very nature of matter and energy which is Spirit when
perceived from a Higher Consciousenss. Spirit dies in matter, in a sense, but is
reborn in the evolution of the Soul. Spirit involves in matter and becomes
invisible but evolves out of it as Higher Consciousness. Jesus tried to point
this out, to end the ignorance. But Homo sapians is still rather ignorant. They
do not know what they do. The principle was mutilated later in a slightly
different form by burning heretics and dissenters for the glory of God and the
good of society. In your time, the Holocaust is the most vivid example of this
old tribal custom misinterpreted.
M.T. There seems something
tragically ironic in that last example . . . that what started in ancient times
as the Hebrew custom of human sacrifice, becomes the sacrifice of millions of
Jews, in modern times, for the "good" of a political god or state. But when you
went to Jerusalem, in those days, did you actually have in mind this tribal
process? You knew you would be put on the cross. So, this sacrifice, the
central issue of your doctrine, has become the prime example of love for mankind
. . . the idea that you gave your life to save the world. Am I making any
J.C. Well, yes and no. It was not
my doctrine. Again, you must remember, this was almost 2000 years ago. I was
part of a tradition. All this has been twisted into all kinds of nonsense. As
for being put on the cross, that was just this old tribal custom played out in
that time and place. The Cross is a central point of realization, spiritually it
is where the Blood of the Lamb is shed for the purification of lower
consciousness. But this is a deep inner realization. As for making it into a
religion in which others are saved by this monstrous act . . . by believing in
some fantasy, it's just too much for words. The only way that one might gain
some value out of it is seeing it now in one's own self . . . how the society
within oneself, as oneself, kills Love, Freedom, and Truth in oneself. It is
this old self that needs to be sacrificed. Society gives you an ego, a
self-deception, but existence takes it away. To become self-consciousness is to
suffer in this sense. This is the evolution of man. But Jesus overcame this
suffering on the Cross. This is what the symbol and myth mean. But it was not
belief. It was actual evolution, a transcendence, a cellular change, the new man
with a consciousness beyond the ego-mind. But out of fear the old mind worships
society and substitutes this worship for imagined Truth, Love, or God. Like most
of what I said or did, this issue of sacrifice is not understood and is used by
others to extend the ego, to create a consoling fantasy for the ego. There is a
mystery in the Cross, and in sacrifice, but it has nothing to do with belief,
and no one can do it for another. It is like, no one can live your life. It is
not a matter of Jesus being the One and Only, but all life being of time and
Eternity, of form and non-form. Once upon a time, I, Chuang Tsu, dreamed I was a
butterfly. I flew here and there, enjoying life without knowing who I was.
Suddenly I woke up and I was indeed Chuang Tsu. Did Chuang Tsu dream he was a
butterfly or did the butterfly dream he was Chuang Tsu?
M.T. Are you implying that you
are also Chuang Tsu?
J.C. Before Lao Tsu was, I
M.T. Well, getting back to your
form as Jesus, what about John's statement? I'll quote: "For God so loved the
world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life."
J.C. While that statement
contains a higher truth, it is not understood. It becomes a confused mixture of
old tribal custom and higher truth, resulting in a religious belief that is
M.T. It seems like history has
turned out to be the reverse of what you might have wanted. Your sacrifice on
the cross has become a central Christian doctrine . . . and I don't see how you
can alter your choice of death on a cross as anything but an example of that
J.C. This issue is complex. It
represents a path, and a choiceless action, an action born of Truth then, and
now symbolically. Jesus was a unique organism in nature that expressed a higher
stage of evolution. Christianity, as a tradition, delays the evolution. But this
is perfectly natural as mankind is not yet ready. Their body-minds have not
developed to the point of being able to handle the energy.
Jesus did not want to experience
that cross, it hurt. . . but to evolve, he figured he had no choice -- not that
he thought about evolving. Here is where levels of understanding overlap and
become confused. Choice, no choice, and then Choicelessness will make no sense
to the rational mind embedded in dualities. Some might toss it off as "God's
will." There are many paths to God . . . to the Realization.
When that Realization occurs,
religion, the path, ritual and belief and doctrine, are seen for the humorous
and pathetic limitation they are, but also the relative value of their
M.T. Did you not give your life
for your belief system?
J.C. In a way. But it was not
really for belief. There was very little of Jesus left, except for a few body
moments of pain where he thought I had abandoned him. The cross was a kind of
anticlimax; a cultural and personal mishmash, a function of Jesus.
M.T. A function of
J.C. Yes. That was out of his
reality and personality; his time and tradition . . . part of his path of
transformation. This whole Cross thing is misunderstood. How could I say to
people to love others as oneself and then kill myself on a Cross? One must
discover what it means to love oneself before the higher understanding of the
Cross becomes a Reality. It takes great strength to go to the Cross, not
weakness. It was not the physical self that died on the cross.
Haven't you ever thought how
strange it is that there is not one shred of evidence for my historical physical
existence? No Roman records, no personal writings, no evidence except the
apparent writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The physical Jesus never
actually existed as such, so how could he die on a cross? The truth is much more
profound than the existence of a physical Jesus on a cross. Two thousand years
later, it is the natural preoccupation of a materialist-rational mythology that
must know or prove the existence or non- existence of something that was never
meant to exist in that materialistic sense. All the while, of course, my message
is lost, and love remains an obscure embarrassment to the modern mind, as it was
twenty centuries ago when that mind hung itself on a cross.
M.T. It seems that what you mean
by love is not understood.
J.C. If you do not understand
what it is to love you cannot love another and you will substitute illusion and
belief, reaction and compensation for love. I said to love God first. But God is
not a thing to love. God is love. When that is Realized the Self is Realized and
in this Self/Love there is no separation between you and another . . . Love is
the Realization and a higher consciousness. Less than that, love becomes a tool
for Realization; and less than that, it becomes some religion's morality. It is
the same with Buddhism or Taoism. I implied I was one with God or that I was
this Realization . . . but you see the trouble that got me into with the
Pharisees and the Hebrew tradition. What I said was blasphemous to that
tradition. It will be blasphemous to any tradition. It is still blasphemous, is
it not? The Realization of God, one's self as God, is a Realization that is
beyond traditional belief systems of any kind in any culture.
M.T. You seem to imply that it is
the ego that is sacrificed.
J.C. Yes, in a sense. But it does
not mean that the ego is some bad thing, even though some call it evil. The
whole thing is just a mental construct, and the sacrifice comes naturally. But
it does not come out of choice, for choice is also illusion. Rather it comes out
of a seeing and hearing that is not a result of past or memory in a
psychological sense. It is thought which is memory, the past, that has
constructed the illusion of self and ego. Love lacks a past to consider. An
Awareness that is choiceless does not arise from the past. I say "judge not"
because it is the ego that is judging and recreating the past moment to moment,
which is all illusion. With this Awareness, the historical moment of personality
as Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, and many other of my forms, becomes a bell ringing in
harmony with that historical context. We are One, but time and tradition produce
many forms. To Realize Tao, God, Nirvana, or the Kingdom, the ego-self is
sacrificed on the Cross, but ultimately not by one's self. This is not usually
an easy death. The ego-self will not normally submit to it. Most are firmly
attached and fused, and it is only physical death that will separate the large
bulk of humanity from its delusion.
M.T. You do not sound like the
J.C. I am not the Biblical Jesus.
The Biblical Jesus never existed. However, I existed as Jesus. It is just that
Iam not confined by other minds, even within an historical context. The Truth is
never in the past.
M.T. I see. Well, getting back to
the ego-self, if the ego-self sinks like a boat in water, is this not also the
disintegration of the personality?
J.C. In a psychological sense, it
is the Higher Self that carries the ego-self. If the boat sinks and the Self is
realized, then you can walk on water. I've demonstrated all this before. If the
boat sinks, and you are fused with the ego- self, you sink with it. The ego-self
depends on the past and knowledge, and knowledge is always a limitation of
Knowing is beyond time and
knowledge. The ego-self is more like a tool for a semi-conscious organism in
time-life, but it has become the life of a tool. Love is the greater power and
the greater Life. The sacrifice of ego-power to love-power does not necessarily
mean sacrifice of the body- mind, although it might. But I am not a philosopher,
psychologist, or a theologian. I am more like a poet. I am not trying to prove
anything . . . Truth cannot be proved. I am just presenting something, and the
parables were my poetry in that time and place.
M.T. Well, I'm afraid you are
J.C. This is the fate of turning
a Realization, a Truth, into a belief system. It has happened to Buddha,
Krishna, Lao Tsu, and many, many others in most cultures around the world.
Religions develop but as far as the world goes, the core consciousness, the
Realization itself, remains obscure and lost in most traditions. Churches,
temples, rituals, ceremonies, symbols, Bibles, religious books, and spiritual
materialism are all attempts to give order and expression to what was the Truth.
But Truth has its own order. The child in man has yet to grow beyond the fear
that creates the false center of ego-self. Beyond that constricted center is the
Center of Truth, which is beyond the childish stages of belief and religious
delusion. This spiritual center is beyond the order imposed by
M.T. What is the Realization you
J.C. The same as that I referred
to years ago. But it is easier to say what it is not. It is easier to say what
it is not because any idea of what it is, is always a limitation, a construction
of the mind. When Pilate asked me, "What is Truth," I said nothing. Buddha
responded in much the same way. The Truth Realizes when the mind is silent. So
it is not feeling, metaphysical speculation, ideation or belief. The problem
with most religions is they do not really make God available or real in the
sense of Realization. Instead they promote belief or mental-feeling. Sometimes
these processes create a feeling for the Realization, but not the
I am not against religions, for
these represent stages of growth in the development of mankind toward the
Spiritual. But, to say it again, Religion is not in creeds or ceremonies. The
Discovery is only in individuals that have gone beyond these limited forms. When
I said "I am the way," I did not mean copy me. You cannot copy me and Know me,
for I am not a thing known but a Knowing. I am not to be worshiped but to be
Realized for what you are.
M.T. But everyone wants to know
how to do this. They perceive a great separation between themselves and what you
and Buddha seem to represent. That's why you most often appear as gods. What
else can they do but worship, believe and hope for the best?
J.C. What I represent in history
or religion is not what I am. I am not an idea, yet it is the idea, a product of
the imaginative mind, that is sought: This can never be Truth. Religions provide
some instruction, some ethics or morality, but morality is not Love. Religions
may preach love but that is not Love. It is mostly an appeal to the emotions, to
sympathy, and to the manipulation of the wallet and purse. This is not the Love
of which I speak. To love one another is to serve one another . . . but this is
a tool for Realization, not a morality. In the Realization there is no question
of what to do . . . Action and Realization are One.
Would you call meditation a
morality? While in one sense meditation is a tool, in another, it is the
Realization. Love, Meditation, Realization, are all One, but from a less aware
position they become separated into tools for that Realiza- tion. God is also
this Realization. This ego, as you, has become more important than God . . .
this is what society teaches in its present stage of human ignorance. So you
want to know how you can know God or have Enlightenment? But this is the
question prompted by the the ego-self. It is the wrong question. The ego-self
wants to own and possess, but God or Enlightenment is not something "you" have
M.T. Well, knowing this, why not
just renounce society and the ego-self?
J.C. That makes almost as much
sense as renouncing your hand. In the first place who is it that is doing the
renouncing? A disgruntled ego? True renouncing relates to "seeing" society as it
is, not as it should be or should not be.
The ego and society are like a
hand, a hand-out. In your poverty you cling to this hand-out for dear life. Will
you bite the hand that feeds you? But are you your hand? The hand is a tool that
serves you. If you fuse and identify with the tool, then who is the master? In
seeing society and ego for what they are, a new sense of life is born, and there
is no need to renounce or accept. Realization is the Action. You see, God has
nothing to do with philosophy or theology. God is Liberation, not the bondage to
idea, concept, or belief.
M.T. This does not sound like the
God mentioned in the Bible.
J.C. You cannot put God in a
book. Nor am I bound by what others think I should be. Jesus tried to integrate
Truth within a traditional belief system. But crucifixion, as a
psycho-political-legal force, is a natural ego-reaction to Truth. This is how
society, culture, and the ego-self maintain the lie they live; this is the
defense against the Truth. The same ego-mentality crucifies Love, Truth, and
Freedom within itself, and therefore society.
M.T. If we are to see society or
ourselves only as we are, rather than what we think we should be, what happens
to progress and change? We see something we don't like and naturally want to
make it better.
J.C. The seeing is not a
judgement but a discernment. True Action is also the Realization. It is
Whole-Action that leaves no scar . . . like the parting of water that leaves no
trace of separation. The ego always leaves its mark, and that mark is 666, a
scar of separation, which then creates another problem, another dis-ease. The
ego-mentality is like a cancer, a growth that separates from the whole and
undermines the integrity of the whole while creating its own identity. Healing
is whole-making and the ego can never do this. There is not one problem in the
world or in oneself that cannot be solved by returning to Wholeness, which is
the Realization. At the source of all advancement in society or the individual,
is the Seed of Wholeness. It is this Seeing that is sacred. It is Sacred-Seeing
that is the true Ceremony of the Savior, the Christ-Mass. Merry Christmas.